Who cares about illegal immigration?

straywolfe Sun, 11/27/2016 - 12:04

First, some of you may know me as Wolfe. There are some technical issues with the site that I would like to discuss with the operator that have forced me into using a new account. Now, moving on to the meat of my argument.

I am a purist libertarian. I support the ideals that are driven purely from the NAP. Therefore, theoretically, I am supposed to support open borders. I won't bother to describe why, because, either you know and don't care, or do know and agree with that position.

I am opposed to LEGAL immigration far more than illegal immigration and here is why.

With illegal immigration, the jobs are relegated to work that US citizens don't want, and don't care about because of the various legal hurdles currently present. Who wants to pick their own tomatoes?

But legal immigration is the real threat. And let's look at the H1B program. I haven't worked in a shop without H1B folks in almost 10 years, even while I know qualified folks looking for work. This is a temporary worker program, supposed to cover short term worker shortages. But the reality is, it provides cheaper, and usually less qualified external labor for companies. Unlike illegal workers, they are are allowed to take US citizen jobs at will, legally.

Why is this position not opposed to my libertarian ideals of 100% open borders? Simple. It is a one way street. If I can't migrate to a country of my choosing, without penalty or restrictions, why should we hobble those who are already here. To choose open borders for ourselves, we must expect the same of competing countries. If we don't, we are simply imposing a condition on ourselves that limits our effectiveness in the marketplace.

There was a time in my field that we didn't have to deal with H1B. During this time, companies were willing to hire folks that were slightly out of their expertise and train them. They also provided ongoing out-of-expertise training during employment. Now, they hire, most usually, less than quality individuals on H1B instead of locally sourcing the work.

My last 4 jobs included a number of less than qualified H1B people, while I personally knew qualified people available for work. So why did the companies choose H1B applicants? Tall promises, shorted income expense, and no real delivery.

Why is this argument libertarian? One way streets aren't libertarian. Abiding by rules that the rest of the world doesn't follow is simply crippling. Until I am allowed to go t Ireland on a work permit, why should Indians be allowed to come here on a work permit?

We have talented and smart people in the US. To look outside of the US, when we are struggling as individuals is just laziness on the part of corporations.

Edit: If you agree or disagree please say so in the comments. Discussion makes us all smarter. If you read what I write, and hate it, try to convince me. If you love it, explain why. We don't grow in a vacuum.

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straywolfe's picture
Isabella sj's picture

Thank you for your input. Glad you could log in by another name. Which brings me to the question. How did you obtain a new name? Was it automatically?

You wrote: "I would like to discuss with the operator"

The operator has been missing for a while and happened right after Lavoy Finicum's murder. Some changes that were made to the "package" software used in this site made the site crash and malfunction as you have experienced. I haven't been able to communicate with the operator for a long time. Requests for a "fix" go unanswered.

You wrote: "We don't grow in a vacuum"

Unlike Daily Paul and Popular Liberty not too many participants comment and or post. Yep, it feels we are in a vacuum. The site for the most part in my observation is suffering slow growth.

I am pretty new at this idea of "Openly" analyzing and discussing what this country is being tortured with so far.

I am very grateful for those that do participate but the site is suffering malnutrition. There's lack of a bubbly abundance of exchange. Sometimes I wonder if the site is ill with the "fake news" surveillance fear virus factor. Attacks on freedom of expression may be the illness that will kill the site at the end. Is that what we want? Or are we failing from promoting the site to make it bubble? Now, that's some responsibility I hadn't thought about.

You wrote: Who cares about legal Immigration?

H1B Legal, illegal vs. NAP and Open Borders: Are the principles of NAP so strict that the health of the economy ignores logic? Does NAP require the Nation to say yes to everything regardless of consequences? Live and let live even if it kills the host? Did I understand your point?

Is mass migration legal or illegal a tool to degrade the "idea" that made this country that once was? Is migration or H1B legality a cancer virus imposed from outside?

Is death to America from within its own borders the poison?

Illegal immigrants are not only those that pick tomatoes. There are many illegals that do construction, will design a building, will treat your ailments, teach reading, math and science or write some cool code without a lic, an H1B visa or citizenship. In that, I do strongly disagree with you.

You wrote: To look outside of the US, when we are struggling as individuals is just laziness on the part of corporations.

This entire scenario, in my opinion is a schizophrenic boogie man that doesn't know what it wants at the end. Is the intended goal to be by itself on top of a mountain looking down at a total destroyed country/world turned into ashes and rubble. That to me is what OPEN BORDERS. H1B and other labels are for. Exactly what the middle east, the EU and South America has been turned into? Rubble, death, destruction, a dessert full of cadavers and slaves completing suicide instead of enduring. Logic has gone out the window.

- Profits, profits and more profits with no moral or ethical obligation to source. Is that the intent?

- Death to the idea (America) of freedom by imposing servitude without concern to preserve that which made the Nation an example of what the concept of freedom provides.

Kill, kill and kill, more, more and more of everything and the appearance of cheap. From happiness to progress to the opportunity to share the Nation's abundance with the rest of the world. Kill it all? How is this laziness?

How insane is it to hire lower wage workers when more training and lower production is the end product? I differ from the notion that corporations are lazy. It is blind greed. The scorpion kills itself!

Where, how and why does Libertarian or purist Libertarians and the NAP concept agrees for this to happen? Is this blackmail? WE ARE A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS! That is the poison.

BUT WE ARE SINKING. WE ARE CHOKING and drowning TO DEATH! Where does this ingredient come into play? Here, I agree with you.

Does the virus of slavery eat the source? When the Nation turns into the same place those that came through legal or illegal immigration came from. Here, long term immigrants legal or illegal will save the nation for USA natives.

Then, who is going to be able to consume that which has been created by native citizens, legal or illegal immigrants? Who is going to buy anything produced? If natives don't have work and money. If legal or illegal workers don't have money either. What gives?

This brings me to the audacity and the stupidity of the Democrat people working to convince migrants, new citizens, legal or illegal to vote for Democrats. Immigrant, legal or illegal don't forget the pain suffered to promote them to leave the country that gave them birth. And abandon their culture, friends, family and history to be absorbed and molded by this wonderful USA dream. So, voting for something or someone that would turn USA into the misery they abandoned was never a good idea.

Hence the reason so many voted for DT. Haitians, Cubans and even Latinos know and delivered DT to Americans. After all, he is locally sourced and grown. And in my opinion to preserve what's left of the dream. Something like GRATITUDE. These groups hope that, that which was "promised" during the campaign phase will be allowed to survive the dream, the "promise" phase and to preserve the Republic.

Open borders is a tool of destruction right along with the fallacy of "multi culture" imposed. The rape of a Nation. The multiculturalism marriage is a concept that must be natural not forced.

You wrote: Until I am allowed to go to Ireland on a work permit, why should Indians be allowed to come here on a work permit?

Who stops you from going to Ireland? Who stops you from working in Ireland? There's always a way. Legal or illegal. That is the American way! or the NATURAL way. AMEN for that.

I've met a few Cubans that left their island in the 60's with nothing but WILL. Restaurants, cleaning services, laundromats, day cares and many other businesses were born spontaneously and not too many ever touched any social services provided by the gov. With a little help from locals their own social services opportunities grew spontaneously. Their pride was too important to them. After all, that's all they had left to live for.

Self imposed or outsider imposed Renaissance. Is the country's soul demanding for a kick starter Renaissance?

From Wikipedia: Suicide-inducing parasitism
Certain types of parasites will cause their hosts to commit suicidal behavior.

A main example is the phylum Acanthocephala, which will direct its host to a predator so as to be eaten by the predator, their new definitive host. The parasitic worm Spinochordodes tellinii will develop in grasshoppers and crickets until it is grown, at which time it will cause its host to leap into water to its death so that the worm can reproduce in water

In closing. This was a delicious experiment. I love being forced to THINK.

Thank you for that.

I went to Popular Liberty looking for silver education and I got GOLD. Thank YOU Question more. https://youtu.be/3eA4OHW8v2k https://youtu.be/mgm8qYEFKwc

straywolfe's picture

But, I will admit to not being able to respond to everything. Your comment was well thought out and thorough and larger than my original post... :)

I will say that I agree with you that all forms of immigration are harmful so long as we live in a global society. I still count legal immigration to be far more harmful, because it is easier for them to take "good" jobs.

Oh, about my name... I have my own email server so can create new emails at will. So I had to create a new account with a made up email in order to log back in.

On your statement about greed vs. laziness. I won't disagree that it is greed. But all entities take the shortest path to success. Both people and corporations. If H1B disappeared, then the shortest path would be to train qualified individuals. So the two statements aren't in conflict.

In regard to your comments on "open borders". Libertarians are useful idiots, myself sometimes included. When Monsanto wants to kill labeling laws, they come to us. When liberals wants Open Borders, they come to us. Etc. The reality is though that our philosophy does not exist in a vacuum. We must weigh out which positions gets us closer to our ideal.

In the case of Monsanto, they have raped the system to the point that labeling laws actually become libertarian (eliminating fraud), but they use us to fight their battle for them. In the case of open borders, we are expected to argue that we should follow a principle that no other nation does to our detriment.

I miss the DP/PL. I have nothing else to do. Maybe I will create my own site... :)

Isabella sj's picture

I'm sometimes feeling lost but work hard to stay on course. The Liberty course that is.

Working on learning about seen life and gab.ai. There are a few recognizable Liberty talkers there. I'm always looking for sources of education.

Just thinking some more.......

A borderless world is the most ridiculous idea I've ever come across. Let's talk about baking a cake. To mix ingredients one needs one kind of vessel. To bake the cake another type. To serve the cake another. To eat the cake another. To store the cake another. And so on. One has to wash a lot of vessels but then again they are used time and time again.

All ingredients for a cake come from the same source. EARTH. And a grocery store. All ingredients come in different packages. All those packages get stored in cabinets and refrigerators. They all come together to make awesomeness delight.

We don't need to become flour to eat the cake. WoW that just came through typing. I'm inspired!

Thanks for the compliment. I think we are taught to question everything as it appears in front of us. The good thing about all of these threats to our wonderful world is that we learn to stay awake and protect it.

Let me know if you start your own site. This one is getting to me. I like interaction.

Good sharing w YA!

I went to Popular Liberty looking for silver education and I got GOLD. Thank YOU Question more. https://youtu.be/3eA4OHW8v2k https://youtu.be/mgm8qYEFKwc

Ron Aldof's picture

I feel that there should be a hold on immigration from all areas except Western and Northern Europe. Taking their brightest. Do this for probably ten or more years. Let all that have been allowed into this country legally up to this point assimilate. No more low educated people that cut grass, bus tables, and hang drywall. We have enough of our own if paid enough that would do that work. Business will pay if they don't have illegals here doing that work for bottom feeder pay.
I know I am going to catch flack for this. :)

Let's get back to Liberty and Freedom.
Trump is working with the Establishment.

straywolfe's picture

Except... I have to ask why you would allow immigration from Western and Northern Europe? Immigration creates harm, or it doesn't... That part of your statement just sounds, well, a tad anti-brown. If we are going to stop immigration, stop it all.

jdayh's picture

Your assessment , while it may not be applied-unfortunately--is perfect!

No more low educated people that cut grass, bus tables, and hang drywall. We have enough of our own if paid enough that would do that work.

Can you imagine how many jobs the youth alone could have access to if the low wage low-IQ(no offense intended) illegal immigrants were no longer here? A typical HS/college kid would have access to a variety of jobs, and both he and his /her friends would be fully employed for summer jobs as well as p/t school year jobs . Crime would go down as youth across America would no longer be "bored" they would be working ,earning money learning to participate in society. It would create a American societal cure that would/could spread across this nation quite rapidly.

"I predict a Donald Trump landslide"